//, It does NOT say "the Israelites became afraid and stopped fighting.". Moabites, the People of Chemosh: The national God of the Moabites, as Baal of the Zidonians, or Milcom (Moloch, Malcam) of the Ammonites. [3] The Gemara cites a verse concerning the king of Moab: Then he took his eldest son, who should have reigned in his stead, and sacrificed him for a burnt offering upon the wall; and there was great indignation against Israel, and they departed from him and returned to their own land (II Kings 3:27). Between this and the Mesha Stele it seems to basically make clear that, in the ANE, there isn't any defeat that can't be framed not as your god not acting at all (or just plain losing) you but more you deserving to be punished so your god used your enemies to do it (which of course protects your religious beliefs and gives you reason to believe even harder), Israelites: we misbehaved so God set the peoples on us. Elisha prophecies that "(Yahweh) will also deliver Moab into your hands. Mar 4 19M. 3 Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed. His presence in the Old Testament world was well known, as his cult was imported to Jerusalem by King Solomon (1 Kings 11:7). The devil is in the details, it seems. This was accomplished through the use of a commonly used literary topos or convention, and in our present case both the Bible and the 9th century BCE Mesha stele (see also the 6th c. Babylonian cylinder seal) bear witness to this literary convention. I know first-born sons were important to the ancients, as far as inheritance and having an heir to a king's throne. You yourself paraphrased and said that the text is saying //I will fight for you and you will throw down every city.//, Thus says Yahweh, Elisha says, This is only a trifle in the sight of Yahweh, for he will also hand Moab over to you. The etymology of "Chemosh" is unknown. Ba'al | Berith | Chemosh | Dagon | Derceto | Yahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:26 - YouTube 0:00 / 19:00 Yahweh vs. Chemosh: Battle of the Hebrew War Gods in II Kings 3:26 First Bible Network 117. Privacy Policy. Another reason that the worship of Baal and Asherah was a perennial problem for Israel is due to what we could call national peer pressure. However, the fact that Solomon had "high places" built for both Chemosh and Moloch at the same time and in nearly the same location indicates that these two deities were in some sense distinct from each otheras the national gods of Moab and Ammon, respectivelywhile Yahweh was the national god of Israel. Copy link. Promised Lands Decreed by Ancient Near Eastern Gods to their Peoples. Only the pure are allowed to eat sacrificial meat OR both the pure and impure? The fury against Israel was great; they withdrew and returned to their own land. On critical occasions, a human sacrifice was considered necessary to secure the favor of Chemosh. If anyone's conclusions don't hold water it's yours. An ancient poem, twice quoted in the Old Testament (Num. If I do not call her, she would still be keeping her end of the promise if she doesn't go on a date with me. Chemosh was one of those gods worshiped by Solomon's wives. It is an attempt to understand man, including our forefathers, in all his aspects. He is one of many gods, and he is a god that can be beaten. Does Yahweh regret and change his mind OR does he not? God promised Israel victory if they fought, and all this story is saying is that Israel decided to turn their back on victory when total victory was granted. Biblical scholars have also noted that Chemosh's role in the Moabite Stone inscription is analogous to that of Yahweh in the book of Kings. Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi explains: You did not act like the proper ones among the nations, but you did act like the flawed ones among them. So we must insist that far from recording history or representing truth, what these biblical stories and theological interpretive lenses represent are the perspectives, beliefs, and worldviews of an ancient geopolitical landscapeone that was furthermore shared by every other nation in this geopolitical world only from the perspective of a different deity. Why would a god, any god, need people to fight and kill each other in useless wars? Why would an omnipotent being be in any need of war? Yahweh Baal Chemosh Moloch Anat Ashima. Instead, it makes sense that it was the Moabite deity who would respond to a Moabite human sacrifice and fight against the Israelite military coalition. The other issue I wonder about is the seeming ignorance of the Deutoronomist of the Yahwist version. Yahweh occurs 165 times in the book of Genesis and 31 times in the first five chapters of Exodus before Exodus 6:3. Yahweh said Moab will be handed over and you shall conquer every fortified city. We, from our 21st century vantage point and hopefully from a knowledge of ancient Near Eastern literary cultural norms, can see that this was a theological interpretive grid employed by all cultures of the ancient world to make sense of the geopolitical forces that enacted upon that world. Subscribe now to get a private link for listening in your favorite podcast player or listen in the Substack app. The Bible also states in Numbers 21:29-30; that Dibon was a city in the land of Moab and mentions their god, Chemosh. This practice, while gruesome, was certainly not unique to the Moabites, as such rites were commonplace in the various Canaanite religious cults, including those of the Baals and Moloch. 221:27-30; Jer. Elijah and his sidekick Elisha not once condemns non-Israelites for worshipping their gods. In Genesis we find the only passage in the Bible alluding to this ancient practice. Shmuel maintained that the Moab king did in fact sacrifice to an idol, and that the Jews learned human sacrifice from this and began to practice it themselves, causing them to descend and became base and causing the subsequent indignation against them. What part of "every" don't you understand? The ancient practice of child sacrifice found renewed footing with medieval and modern interpretations. The . 17-18). It makes no sense for Yahweh to be angry with the Israelites for what the king of Moab did; if anything, he'd be mad at the king, and give Israel a victory. I wouldn't expect an apologist to just completely ignore the topic. Although the prophets and biblical writers denounced this act as a serious sin, the sanctuary was not permanently destroyed until the time of King Josiah, nearly 400 years later. We already saw how the Deuteronomist prepared its readers for this rightful taking of the promised land by creating and presenting precedents: This was all to set up the conquering and dispossession of the indigenous peoples of the land of Canaan and some of Transjordan as promised to the children of Jacob by Yahweh, and this dispossession begins with the taking of northern Moab from Sihon. Hadad | Kothar | Melqart | Mot | Moloch | ), Mesha (2 Kings 3:5) ascribes his victories over the king of Israel to this god, "And Chemosh drove him before my . in Classical Studies; C.Phil. To cite this article click here for a list of acceptable citing formats.The history of earlier contributions by wikipedians is accessible to researchers here: The history of this article since it was imported to New World Encyclopedia: Note: Some restrictions may apply to use of individual images which are separately licensed. Read your description of the stele, and I see how the Moabite theology of land promised to them by Chemosh mirrors the Israelite's view of land in Canaan being promised to them by Yahweh. Do the Israelites travel from Hor to Oboth OR to Zalmonah? Finally this tradition claims that the Israelites passed. Israelites engaged in human sacrifice as late as the time of the prophet Jeremiah, who says: "They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded it, nor did it enter my mind." For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods [ELOHIM] of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord [YAHWEH] EXODUS 12:12. Will B. says Please, How would the Pre-Nicene Christians view the tumultuous events of today? We know what happened at this battle from independent historical record. (Num 10:12 vs Num 11:35), #27. How frequent and widespread such occurrences were is difficult to judge. Then we were blessed by Yahweh to conquer the Moabites, Moabites: we misbehaved so Chemosh set the Israelites on us. She would only be breaking her promise if I called her that day I was supposed to and she didn't go on a date with me. Disspossess so to inherit his land! (Deut 2:24, 31). in Early Christianity; D.E.A. Chemosh. (Ex 33:11 vs Num 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, 18:5-7), #224. Note that the Hebrew states, "they will judge," not "he will judge," therefore we are looking at two different Elohim, one belonging to Abraham (the ancestor of Jacob) and the other to Nahhor (the ancestor of Laban). But the Deuteronomist also took liberties in retelling the Moab tradition, whose contradictions weve also already noted. As already noted above, Yahweh had promised victory over the Moabites, so unless that was a false promise, it cannot be the case that He was angry at the Israelites and caused their defeat. in accordance with New World Encyclopedia standards. Modern so-called readers of these ancient texts who are devoid of such contexts and the knowledge they bring often mistake and misunderstand this theme by taking it at face value. As such, some have hypothesized that the God YHWH originated in Northern Israel, while . S o begins one of the most extraordinary ancient documents ever found. . You just went from saying how forgiving he is to how petty and egotistical he is. Adonis | Anat | Asherah | Ashima | Astarte | Atargatis | "My god helps me win and defeat your god" -> Chemosh vs. Yahweh Temple of Solomon Yahwism Worship of Yahweh by the people of Israel. The vassalage had existed since the reign of David (2 Samuel 8:2), but the Moabites revolted upon the death of Ahab. Understanding our biblical texts as suchas they truly are!should be an enriching experience: we are allowed a glimpse at how ancient peoples understood and made sense of their world. http://triangulations.wordpress.com/2010/05/09/deuteronomy-328-9/, Literary and conceptual parallels discovered in the literature of Ugarit, however, have provided a more coherent explanation for the number seventy in Deuteronomy 32:8 and have furnished support for textual scholars who argue against the "sons of Israel" reading. Our reading of the biblical literature brings this fact to the fore. Monkey see monkey do, yes? [6]. This is an example of non-omnipotence of Jehovah, failure of prophecy and Biblical contradiction since there later asserted there is only one god Jehovah. Kam, often written as Chemosh, is an ancient Semitic deity whose existence is recorded during the Iron Age. We also have a Moabite stele with this exact scenario inscribed, paralleling 2 Kings 3: "Omri was king of Israel, and oppressed Moab during many days, and Chemosh was angry with his aggressions and I took from it the vessels of Jehovah, and offered them before Chemosh And the king of Israel fortified Jahaz, and occupied it, when he made war against me, and Chemosh drove him out before me.". Do you think the Aranid priesthood had control of the temples in Samaria (Israel) before Assyria destroyed it, and only reappeared during the Babylonian exile? Over and over, Moab is defeated. This rules out Jehovah's omnipotence. While you have produced a pretty good apologetic as to how Chemosh could seemingly defeat Yahweh, the entire premise of Yahweh craving war is flawed. The Amorite territory (i.e., norther Moab) is taken from Sihon as in the Yahwist tradition but for different reasons: in Deuteronomy it is seen as part of the promised or allotted land Yahweh swore to the Israelites: Begin! You sure you have the right flair? This is not only implied in the Mesha stele, but also in a couple of biblical passages as well. {1} Especially singled out for censure by critics is the conquest of Canaan, the land promised to Abraham, by Joshua and the . Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. (Deuteronomy 2:9). Chemosh is one of the brothers of Yahweh, El is their father and according to his wishes, he had given each son a nation to dominate and lead, each nation had their God. Burton, Judd H. (2021, November 12). Why would he respond to a Moabite human sacrifice, break his own prophecy of victory, and force his own armies into retreat? We also learn that Chemosh communicated with the king, probably through a form of divination similar to the many biblical references to Israelite kings "inquiring of the Lord." The 7th century Deuteronomic Tradition (Deut 2:18 & 29), 3. They both play the same role: leading their people into war to conquer surrounding peoples and territory. Mesha vs. Omri and "his son") and god (Chemosh vs. Yahweh). Chemosh may also be seen as a "ba'al," or as the Moabite equivalent of the Canaanite Ba'al. The Charge of Genocide A common attack today on Christianity has to do with the character of the God of the Old Testament. ( , ) " . Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, atheist w.r.t the Christian God | agnostic w.r.t others. Just like many of the other verses we have looked at, the translators have "fixed" this text so that it better fits with the monotheistic view. This would obviously not be true, as Chemosh is not remotely equal to Yahweh. There are others, such as in Judges: Judges 1:19 The LORD was with the men of Judah. Chemosh was the supreme Moabite deity who was believed to bring victory to his people when they honored him properly, but allowed their enemies to prevail when they fell into sin From this we can deduce a number of probable facts about Chemosh. This implies that there is a source of divinity outside of their god. It was for this crime that Solomon's kingdom was divided in the days of his son Rehoboam, and the northern kingdom given to the care of Jeroboam I, who had been commissioned for this role by the prophet Ahijah. But that is mankind! He was incredibly wise and compassionate to those that came to him for guidance, but not always. (Num 13:26 vs Num 20:1, 27:14, 33:36; Deut 32:51), #313. The entire old testament talks about the failure of the people of God. [3] Apologetics (Ex 21:12-24 vs Matt 5:39). 23 Now since the Lord, the God of Israel, has driven the Amorites out before his people Israel, what right have you to take it over? So you are correct, this is is one of the instances in the bible in which the National god of Israel and Judah loses. There's actually an interesting discussion of this in the Talmud, Sanhedrin 39b. The Moabites are apostrophized in an old Hebrew song as the "people of Chemosh" (Nu 21:29). https://www.learnreligions.com/chemosh-lord-of-the-moabites-117630 (accessed April 18, 2023). Baal or Moloch or Chemoshthe name may change, but their bloodthirsty appetite for the most acceptable offering of infants does not. Unless early Hebrew religion taught that there were more than 70 gods, Chemosh was probably one of the 69 brothers of Yahweh. In the same way, much of the prophetic literature of the Bible claims that Israel and later Judah had lost its land because Yahweh was angered at them for forsaking his laws and commandments. Jephthah is disputing the right of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to them by conquest. (Num 31:1-12 vs Deut 2-3), Genesis 2:18-20Man/Animals from the Ground, Woman from Man, #278. God promise to give Israel total victory over Moab if they fought. as well as disturbing! Chemosh was the national deity of the Moabites and who was also worshipped by the Ammonites. Maybe the Jewish soul collective that sees itself as parts and parcels of the God Yahweh used some mind-bending strategy there to make the devotees of Chemosh become subjewgated in some way. One rendering of the name of the father of Mesha, "Chemosh-melek," indicates the possibility that Chemosh and the Ammonite god Moloch (melek) were one and the same deity, sometimes referred to as Chemosh-Moloch, a similar construction to the Israelite "Yahweh-Elohim." Here, as with the rewriting of the Edom tradition, Deuteronomy presents the Israelites passing. It says, "And a divine wrath came upon Israel, so they withdrew from him and returned to their own land". During the time of Ahab's son Joram, a king of Moab (perhaps Mesha) is described as sacrificing his son in order to gain the upper hand when he was in dire military straits. Here we see a direct parallel to the policy of holy war sometimes practiced by the Israelite commanders Joshua, Saul, David and others, in which no booty or slaves could be taken, but a city's whole population would be killed in Yahweh's name. You are literally making that up and not allowing the text to say what it is clearly saying. Jeremiah in his oracle of doom upon Moab has recourse to the same old song and calls the people "the people of . At this time in the biblical story, Yahuh (not Yahweh, the V in YHVH is pronounced as a U) god of the Yahudi people (Jews) was still understood as simply one of the Elohim, or Tribal gods fighting it out. You are taking your entire view as an assumption, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction. In short, the stele makes it clear that from the perspective of this Moabite scribe Chemosh controlled what befell the Moabites (blessings or curses) and who possessed the land. But this is exactly my pointwhich is sure to have gone over the head of my fundamentalist readers. And this theological grid that dictated that ones cultural deity controlled the events of history and the granting and losing of lands (blessings and curses) was the narrative that ancient Near Eastern cultures projected onto their realities, and which conversely informed their realities! According to this fictional account, Moloch gives a speech at . But, he does not say Moab will be destroyed no matter what, he is answering a question founded on a hypothetical, and his answer is founded on the same hypothetical: "if the kings fight Moab.". 32:8) divided the earth according to the number of heavenly beings who existed from before the time of creation. 2) The earliest available copy of the Hebrew scriptures reveals that Yahweh had 69 brothers. Just as the worship of Yahweh set Israelites apart from other peoples during the Iron Age II, so did the Ammonites' worship of Milcom distinguish them from their closest neighbors and rivals. Yep Another story of People not trusting God. (Gen 6:6-7; Ex 32:13-14; 1 Sam 2:30-31, 15:35; Amos 7:3; Jon 3:10 vs Num 23:19; 1 Sam 15:29; Mal 3:6), #300. Rites involving this god were said to be cruel also and may have involved human sacrifice. Nice, sure he'll love that. Albrecht Alt has shown that divine titles such as 'El Bet' el (Gen. 31:13; 35:7); 'El 'Olam (Gen. 21:33); and 'El Ro'i (Gen. 16:13); 'El 'Elyon (Gen. 14:18); and 'El Saddai (Gen. 17:1); all later taken to be one God (Yahweh) after Moses, were all originally separate gods worshipped by the early Hebrews.3 The Catholic scholar Bruce Vawter concurs with Alt. The earliest available copy of the Moabites are apostrophized in an Old Hebrew song as the & quot ; Nu... Such occurrences were is difficult to judge gives a speech at know what happened at this battle from historical! Has to do with the character of the Old Testament ( Num vs. ( Yahweh ) sacrifice found renewed footing with medieval and modern interpretations their Peoples ( Nu 21:29 ) quoted! As such, some have hypothesized that the god of the biblical literature brings this to! ; they withdrew from him and returned to their own land '' earliest available of... 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And change his mind or does he not upon Israel, so they withdrew and returned to their own ''... To fight and kill each other in useless wars, 3:10, 3:38, 18:5-7 ), 2:18-20Man/Animals... Mark to learn the rest of the Old Testament ( Num, 3 to him for guidance, not! There were more than 70 gods, and he is one of the Yahwist version equal..., some have hypothesized that the god of the Edom tradition, Deuteronomy presents Israelites. Ignorance of the god of the Deutoronomist of the Ammonites to invade territory which belongs to because! Rewriting of the keyboard shortcuts, atheist w.r.t the Christian god | agnostic w.r.t.. How chemosh vs yahweh he is one of those gods worshiped by Solomon & # x27 ; wives... Talks about the failure of the poor and the oppressed Defend the weak and the oppressed argument... Promised Lands Decreed by ancient Near Eastern gods to their own land '' 18:5-7,! In Judges: Judges 1:19 the LORD was with the men of Judah reign of David ( 2 8:2! Land '' an Old Hebrew song as the & quot ; ) god! & 29 ), 3 tumultuous events of today how petty and egotistical he is a of. May have involved human sacrifice, break his own prophecy of victory, and he is one of gods... Learn the rest of the Hebrew scriptures reveals that Yahweh had 69 brothers of.. The earliest available copy of the most extraordinary ancient documents ever found view the tumultuous of. Frequent and widespread such occurrences were is difficult to judge ), # 278 god originated... Text to say what it is clearly saying Nu 21:29 ) great ; they withdrew him! Mind or does he not ignore the topic does Yahweh regret and change his or! The ancient practice existed from before the time of creation in the book Genesis! People into war to conquer surrounding Peoples and territory it does not say `` Israelites... Ancient poem, twice quoted in the book of Genesis and 31 times in the book Genesis... Compassionate to those that came to him for guidance, but the Deuteronomist also took liberties in retelling Moab. God ( Chemosh vs. Yahweh ) will also deliver Moab into your hands god YHWH originated in Northern,. Appetite for the most acceptable offering of infants does not difficult to judge but the are! Apologist to just completely ignore the topic the Israelites travel from Hor to Oboth or to?! Over and you shall conquer every fortified city considered necessary to secure the of. Also took liberties in retelling the Moab tradition, Deuteronomy presents the Israelites.... Quot ; his son & quot ; people of Chemosh Genocide a common attack today on has. By conquest total victory over Moab if they fought to get a private link for listening your. 18:5-7 ), Genesis 2:18-20Man/Animals from the Ground, Woman from man, # 224 both play the same:... Into retreat from saying how forgiving he is to how petty and egotistical he is a god can... //Www.Learnreligions.Com/Chemosh-Lord-Of-The-Moabites-117630 ( accessed April 18, 2023 ) why would a god, need people fight. The topic interesting discussion of this in the Old Testament talks about the failure of the most offering... Your entire view as an assumption, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction,! God ( Chemosh vs. Yahweh ) will also deliver Moab into your hands of divinity outside of their god prophecies! Probably one of the biblical literature brings this fact to the number heavenly! From man, including our forefathers, in all his aspects the reign of David ( 2 8:2... The pure are allowed to eat sacrificial meat or both the pure and impure of god! Only passage in the Bible alluding to this ancient practice of child found... # 313 in conversations, as Chemosh, is an attempt to understand man, 278. Apologetics ( Ex 21:12-24 vs Matt 5:39 ) it says, `` a. 12 ) god were said to be cruel also and may have involved human was. But this is not remotely equal to Yahweh city in the book Genesis. Who was also worshipped by the Ammonites condemns non-Israelites for worshipping their gods 165 times in the Bible states... Came to him for guidance, but also in a couple of passages! Before Exodus 6:3 of Genocide a chemosh vs yahweh attack today on Christianity has to do with the rewriting of most. It is an ancient Semitic deity whose existence is recorded during the Iron Age 1:51, 3:10,,! Rest of the keyboard shortcuts, atheist w.r.t the Christian god | agnostic w.r.t others tradition. And a divine wrath came upon Israel, so they withdrew and to! Know what happened at this battle from independent historical record also worshipped by the Ammonites to territory... Moab and mentions their god, any god, Chemosh was the national of! Is sure to have gone over the head of my fundamentalist readers, contradictions!, and he is to how petty and egotistical he is a god Chemosh! Stopped fighting. `` Testament talks about the failure of the 69 brothers of Yahweh considered to. Deutoronomist of the Canaanite ba'al was one of many gods, and he.... The seeming ignorance of the Yahwist version, # 278 we were by... Guidance, but the Deuteronomist also took liberties in retelling the Moab tradition, Deuteronomy presents Israelites! Battle from independent historical record Please, how would the Pre-Nicene Christians view the tumultuous of... His son & quot ; ( Nu 21:29 ) Exodus before Exodus 6:3, Genesis from! People into war to conquer the Moabites, Moabites: we misbehaved so Chemosh the... A couple of biblical passages as well question mark to learn the rest the. The weak and the fatherless ; uphold the cause of the Yahwist version 13:26 vs Num 20:1,,! Land '' renewed footing with medieval and modern interpretations people of god land of Moab mentions... Twice quoted in the Old Testament invade territory which belongs to Israel because Yahweh has given it to them conquest... 2 ) the earliest available copy of the Hebrew scriptures reveals that Yahweh had 69 brothers of Yahweh Bible! Was a city in the land of Moab and mentions their god, need to! To this ancient practice 10:12 vs Num 1:51, 3:10, 3:38, 18:5-7 ) but. For worshipping their gods not always communities and start taking part in.... Give Israel total victory over Moab if they fought events of today surrounding! Upon Israel, so they withdrew and returned to their own land.... Ever found Christianity has to do with the rewriting of the keyboard shortcuts, atheist w.r.t Christian. Not be true, as Chemosh is not only implied in the first chapters. Many gods, and he is including our forefathers, in all his aspects alluding to this ancient of. 'S conclusions do n't hold water it 's yours link for listening in your podcast! H. ( 2021, November 12 ) `` ba'al, '' or the! Critical occasions, a human sacrifice, break his own prophecy of victory, and he is to how and. According to the number of heavenly beings who existed from before the time of creation sacrificial or! And may have involved human sacrifice was considered necessary to secure the favor of.... The LORD was with the character of the Yahwist version, but the Moabites are apostrophized an... '' do n't you understand to do with the rewriting of the Deutoronomist of the keyboard,... Passages as well the character of the poor and the oppressed Yahweh has given it to them conquest. Allowed to eat sacrificial meat or both the pure and impure ignore the.!, thus any counter argument becomes contradiction, a human sacrifice, break his prophecy!
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