1. garbage dump - a piece of land where waste materials are dumped. For the others in the series, see The myth of the rope around the high priests ankle and The myth that all the Apostles were martyred, Every business has a busy season. Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. I cannot vouch for Jerome, his meaning or his wording. In order to be successful, corporate marketing departments prepare for these busy-seasons long in, From Black Friday to Good Friday: Easter Ad Campaigns, Russell Moore, Tyler Zach, and the Gospel For Enneagram, Rick Warren: His Stainglass Window and His Female Pastors, To Jackie Hill Perry: God Wants Christians Straight, The myth of the rope around the high priests ankle, The myth that all the Apostles were martyred, These Preachers Aint Loyal: Why Jamal Harrison Bryant is Symptomatic of a Deeper Problem. He does not say say that Sodom underwent "punishment of eternal fire" but that Sodom is an example for those that will. Same with "aionian life". Yes, that Origen took the idea of universal salvation to its extreme (though it is unclear how far he actually believed this to be factual or whether he was simply engaging in an experiment of thought) and it was this extreme form that was shocking to many Christians. It doesnt take rocket science to realize that after King Josiah destroyed the Baal temple it would be covered over and used for the city trash. He is not being literal here, He is speaking about cutting off or getting rid of something of the carnal man. Why should anyone want to go out when God and all his people and everything good is inside.]. No one. Again, the torment is the separation. A prophecy in his book that has thus far not come true should not be used to build doctrine on. Romans 5 speaks of "condemnation to all men" but of "the many will be made righteous" not "all will made righteous". When a fire is not quenched it burns UNTIL IT RUNS OUT OF FUEL. Rate: Ohio Serpent Mound in the News Originally it referred to a garbage dump in a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. The first results in being in danger of the "judgement". It is never connected to any words denoting the length of time it is to be inflicted. That little valley is a likely spot. It is retributive and vindictive. It was a sanitation dump because the city of Jerusalem was above the valley and the filth was allowed to flow into the valley. Their meaning cannot be derived from the "object" (which means you assumption that salvation can be eternal but punishment cannot) but from the context and the context in the passage referred above is a parallel structure. She offers the following highly imaginative description of this burning refuse heap, which serves as a nice, detailed amalgamation of all the descriptions Ive heard of it over the years. Jesus gives a simple vivid example, they will be like chaff thrown in a flame. 60. This combination of abominable fires and divine judgment led to the association of the valley with a place of perpetual judgment (see Isa. But, I agree, that Universalists play the "eternal is not always time" hand way too much! Dead animals and bodies of executed criminals would be put there along with all trash. 129-30), Theres only one problem. There is no corresponding situation for punishment having it's opposite destroyed thus allowing it to continue outside of time. Hades, the Gray Waste of NE Gehenna, the Bleak Eternity of NE, LE The Nine Hells (of Baator) LE Acheron, the Infinite Battlefield of LN, LE Mechanus, the Clockwork Nirvana of LN Arcadia, the. Mk. Concerning this valley, I've heard that the blood of sacrificed Passover lambs ran down this hillside. [Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. http://www.afterlife.co.nz/2012/featured-article/tracing-the-road-to-gehenna/ An article looking at Gehenna in the OT and why Jesus may have chosen to use this word. James A. Montgomery observes this medieval commentator's logic, but does not accept it. Gehenna as a Garbage Dump? Not necessarily. The doors were certainly locked as long as the wedding feast endures. Add to that the teaching of the church since the earliest days. (Actually it says "from one new moon to IT'S next", meaning the same new moon one year later)Time is clearly still in view in this context. After the Jews returned from the Babylonian exile, the valley became a garbage dump where anything considered unclean was placed. He quotes: Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the Holy Land beginning in 1838. I had no idea that the Old Testament provides ample evidence for why the New Testament associates Gehenna with the abode of the damned. Gehenna, or the valley of Hinnom, is an actual valley in the city of Jerusalem. Hell fire, Gehenna the garbage dump with its constantly burning fire. When the food source dries up, these moths have nowhere to lay their eggs! ELeeMacFall 6 yr. ago PDF. Should a Complementarian Speak with Lady Preachers? I find the scriptures remarkable, and you, sir, have nailed these difficult questions to the cross itself. Jude says Sodom and Gomorrah undergo vengeance in "eternal fire", and Ezekiel says that Sodom and her daughters will one day be restored to their former estate. It differs from the neutral-leaning Sheol as Gehenna was considered a type of waiting room; the longest one can be there is 11 or 12 months with few exceptions. After the ages, there will be no need to describe Him to anyone because all will know Him fully, just as they also are known by Him now. In Luke 16:26 Abraham explains why he can't send Lazarus to the rich man with a few drops of water. Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? They will long to die, but death will flee from them. Yesterday Louis McBride raised the issue (HT: BibleX). In Isaiah 30:33, it is referred to as Topheth, a horrible, fearsome place: "Its fire pit has been made deep and wide, with an abundance of fire and wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream . For more details, see copyright information. Ive listened to many sermons and conference talks over the years which have included in them a curious factoid, namely that Gehenna was not only a reference to the Valley of Hinnon, but that it was also a perpetually burning trash dump. Its a blank slate until this commentary pops up. 1 Corinthians 15 you overreading again. According to Chan and Sprinkle "The first reference we have to the Hinnom Valley, or Gehenna, as a town dump is made by a rabbi named David Kimhi in a Commentary, which was written in AD 1200." We should also note that there is no archeological evidence of Gehenna as a garbage dump. Gender matters: women and religion, 1960-2000, Barbara Brown Zikmund. If this is supposed to be a literal story about the suffering of an eternal "hell", there would be no need to explain the gulf as being necessary to prevent people from going from Abraham's bosom to the other side where there is torment. It is a reasonable deduction that there would be a dump and also reasonable that sometimes it would be alite and bodies throw there for shame. Maybe you guys think you are as smart as our all knowing all seeing creator. The interpretive contortions the universalists and eternal tormenters engaged in made my head hurt! Still, that's no basis for any claims about how eternal does not mean eternal or how undying fire/worms suddenly mean dying-only-later fire/worms. The reason they didn't die out was because there was a constant supply of refuge being fed them. The Hebrew word is used in relation to people. It is one of a number of alignment-based Outer Planes that form part of the standard Dungeons & Dragons ( D&D ) cosmology, used in the Planescape , Greyhawk , and some editions of . It is part and parcel with the place that we normally call Hell. The rest of the world will not "suffers unimaginable torment for eternity" the world will be with God, whose judgement is just, even in regard to the damned. The KJV translates Strong's G1067 in the following manner: hell (9x), hell fire (with G4442) (3x). There is no biblical support for this, neither is there any literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods to suggest this. Which brings us back to our starting point: it is eternal for good and bad or age-enduring for both, not this for one and that for another. In Jesus' day, it was once again the city's garbage dump, where a fire was always burning to consume anything thrown on the pile ( Mark 9:43-48 ). It is also very instructive to study the writings of the early church fathers and church history to see how prevalent a belief universal salvation was, and then compare the conditions that surrounded the second council at Constantinople where they decided that a confession of belief in an eternal hell was one of the conditions for being accepted into "the church". Matt. Why should it end? The first post-apostolic council at Nicea was chaired by Gregory Nazianzen who was a universalist. The chastisement is in reference to the Second Death, which can't be eternal if we are to take any of the passages about death itself being destroyed literally. Gregory of Nyssa, another prominent teacher of universalism, drafted the part of the Nicean creed dealing with the trinity. Almost every major commentary on Matthew that mentions Gehenna also spoke of the garbage dump. I went to a website and read the list of anathemas directed against his teachings and found out that he goes farther than the final restoration of all of mankind and goes as far as saying the devil would one day be repentant and saved. Unless otherwise noted, the posts are written by Todd Bolen, PhD, Professor of Biblical Studies at The Masters University. Gehenna In Hebrew Scriptures After the Baylonian exile (6 th cent BCE) A garbage dump in a deep narrow valley outside the wall of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse. Jerome is one, Christ may be another. 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 66:24) and later with a place of judgment by fire without any special connection to Jerusalem (see, for example, 1 Enoch 27:1ff., 54:1ff., 63:3-4, and 90:26ff) (Jesus and the Kingdom of God, 376-77). By Patrick Hunt - Gehenna is an old Hebrew toponym (place name) that began as a literal, physical location - the Valley of Hinnom - and gradually transformed into a metaphor for hell through various processes including religious defilement. Todd Bolen, from his bibleplaces blog, rounds up some scholarly sources. The fire never went out. Matthew 25) of the "blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" and of the "cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.". As for Mark 9:44, if you look at Isaiah 66:24 you will see it is bodies that are being eaten by 'worms' and fire. Most did not. Obviously, this fire is not still burning today, so this fire had an "age to come" or better put a "forever result" quality to it vs. a duration quality to it. If all men could be saved, it would be great, but we are long past this (let alone all creatures). The restoration of these cities is tied to the PEOPLE that lived there in 16:55. One should also remember that archeology developers it's conclusions from the remains of history and of necessity because of the often small amount found makes wrong conclusions. His funeral pyre is deep and wide, with plenty of fire and wood. I've used this illustration many times. Thus already in Old Testament times, the Valley of Hinnom was associated with the destiny of the wicked. ", No one. if you use the NIV version of the Bible the words "and shut out" are not in the Greek, rather just the preposition "from"). Marcos you're welcome to reject the doctrine of eternal torment, but don't pretend that this blogpost or the Bible gives any support to your view. Two different thoughts on the Matthew verse. Jerusalem's Hinnom Valley also became the perpetual burning-garbage dump and city sewer. dumpsite, rubbish dump, trash dump, wasteyard, waste-yard, dump. The rest of the chapter goes on to reassure Israel that they will not all be killed in this judgment. Because the church is not a "club for solving real and apparent biblical contradictions", it is not a "bible study club". This place existed at the time Jesus spoke these very words. One of the strange things about all of the talk about whether punishment is eternal or not is the fact that if the Lord had wanted to communicate the idea that punishment would be eternal, there are several ways to do this in Greek and make it crystal clear. Consider this myth to be thoroughly debunked. If the trash dump was burning or not - I don't know. "the worm never dies" how do you turn never into "sometime in the future"? Because talking about God is nothing more than information for the unknowing? However, the word simply means the Valley (heb. Its fires were kept continually burning (an everlasting lake of fire!) be anathema!) ", Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, SODOM AND HER DAUGHTERS SHALL RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.". Eventually, part of Gei Ben Hinnom became a dump, with constant day and night burning of trash fires emitting a sulfurous stench. About the same time, G. R. Beasley-Murray made a similar observation: The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the citys rubbish was burned in this valley,has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimhi made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source. In times of war, decaying human flesh mingled with the rotting garbageimagine the vile vision. Anything thrown into this dump would be completely destroyed, turned into ashes. Why should anyone want to go out when God and all his people and everything good is inside. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire. Not necessarily TO those in the fire, possibly TO OTHERS ABOUT THOSE in the fire if they are already in it, they don't need examples. And nowhere did either Christ or any Apostle ever teach that. From the reign of Josiah onward, it was used as a garbage dump where the fires burned the refuse continuously. In v.15-16 it seems pretty clear the context of this passage is a universal judgment on all flesh. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna - garbage dump) fire.29) And if thy right eye . He does not cast off forever. Common mistake to read this as etetnal "judging" since most etetnal tormenters believe in inherent immortality if the soul. What concerns me is that virtually no one raised in the church even notices there is any need for one. Resident,Physics has proven that if you take ANYTHING, like time or space and divide it smaller or multiply it bigger, at some point everything LOSES LOCALITY. Your email address will not be published. I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it. For now, just notice the term as . In Biblical times, this place was occupied by Western Semitic pagans people who worshiped deities different from YHWH, such as Molech. "You have paid for your lewdness and your abominations, says the Lord. Another portion of the ravine became a cesspool receiving the . Everlasting is only aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only age-during garbage dump, the age being not 2011 but just AD 70. This is a parable directed at the Jews (Judah had 5 brothers) who let the Gentiles starve at the gates. If this parable is supposed to teach anything about punishment in the afterlife, you would think that this gulf would not be necessary. He does not say say that Sodom underwent "punishment of eternal fire" but that Sodom is an example for those that will.]. The place served as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to dispose of rubbish. Topheth has been ready for the king for a long time now. The common view today is that Gehenna was the garbage dump of Jerusalem. Theres also no archeological evidence of children sacrificed there or of the Baal Temple. It can't. Oh, and neither Gregory played any part at "Nicea", Nazianzen played a short role at Constantinople in 381. At the same time, I hope you will believe me that the vast majority of Christians you believe in things like eternal salvation and damnation are not motivated by any joy in seeing other people suffer but by respect for Christ's teaching, Christ's judgement and for other people's freedom of choice. The books of Kings and Chronicles tell us that a wealthy family named "Hinnom" owned a garden near Jerusalem which first King Ahaz, and then even more audaciously, King Manasseh turned into a place for burning children as a sacrifice to the god Molech. Actually, looking at the verses in Ezekiel again, some translation give it like this (Ezekiel 16:53-59, emphasis added by capitals): "WHEN I bring back their captives, the captives of Sodom and her daughters, and the captives of Samaria and her daughters, then I will also bring back the captives of your captivity among them, "that you may bear your own shame and be disgraced by all that you did when hyou comforted them. Uhh no. Though the channels were probably used to drain rainwater from the towns, people also used them to dump human waste, garbage, and debris. The origin of the "garbage dump" theory appears to be Kimchi. But no matter what they eat, do not die, THEY LEAVE WHAT THEY ARE EATING TO BECOME A FLY OR MOTH. Is that decree retroactive? So you don't want to "blot them out", you want to "reconcile all" but again this is just utter disrespect to human beings and their free will, which in turn is a denial of the opportunity to love. I brought up a similar situation in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. But there isn't evidence to support this idea. As with the legend about the rope around the high priests ankle, this popular myth seems to have originated in Jewish circles in the Middle Ages. And Jude used the PRESENT TENSE judgement suffered by them as an example of something that would take place in the future. He claims they are already undergoing it. Saying "God is eternal" is chickening out. What a waste of time this would mean. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Are you serious? About the other direction he didn't ask. 7:32-33). Kolasin has as it's root meaning "to prune" something away or remove it in order to IMPROVE it. Some scholars claim Gehenna later became a " garbage dump ," where refuse was subsequently burned. The verses are clearly parallel, so that eternal MUST mean the same for the blessed and the cursed. So you call someone "empty-headed" and get to face the Sanhedrin or similar council, but call someone "impious fool" and you get eternal worms and fire in Gehenna? Thanks for the article, I have always wanted to see some evidence for calling associating Gehenna with a burning trash heap. In fact, near as anyone can tell, the earliest mention we have of this theory comes a Rabbi named David Kimhi who wrote a commentary on Psalm 27 in the 13th Century. Of course, since it was a garbage dump, it was necessary to keep the garbage burning in order to reduce the stench and to limit the number of flies and rats. But this doesn't give you the right to twist his words. If it was consistently translated as 'eternal' people would see how ridiculous that idea is. We seem to just read right past those verses. He does not tell us where he got that information from and that is all we hear of it. Gehenna is the Jewish version of the "punishing afterlife" and the word refers to a valley just to the west side of the city of Jerusalem. You will forgive me that I will not go and read through all the parables but if I have immediately three springing to mind that teach a final, unchangeable judgement than I don't need to have dozens others agree with that or read anything into them. And can we actualle be cartain about the identity of Sodom and her daughters? The Gray Waste of Hades, also known as the Gray Waste, was an Outer Plane in the Great Wheel cosmology model, home of the daemons. Cog of Blood. The fire never went out. They ignore the nature of both worms and fire to protect their doctrine of an eternal hell. There simply is no evidence to support the idea, but because it seems a reasonable explanation for the origin of the Hinnom Valley as hell, writers and preachers accept and propagate the story. Your quiet deliberations and considerations are refreshing and leave me with hope and joy, is this not the work of the Ekklesia? Purchasers of the Photo Companion to the Bible and the Pictorial Library of Bible Lands are granted liberal usage rights for the images for personal and educational purposes. There was a fire there, burning constantly to consume the trash. But note that Sodom has not returned to its former state, so I doubt your literalist reading is correct. The version I read was that after human sacrifice in the Hinnom valley ceased, it was then used as a rubbish dump. Who said it was a statement of limitation when did your "statement of fact" become a "statement of limitation"? As a conditionalist, it's so nice to be able to just let the Bible speak plainly on these topics and be true to sound exegesis vs. imposing a strained interpretation to produce a desired doctrinal end (universalism or eternal torment in my opinion). Certainly they produced less waste than a modern city. Only the latter is grounds for personal condemnation. En contraire. It is a deep and narrow ravine on the South West side of Jerusalem - first mentioned in Joshua 15:8 and in 18:16 where it says that the boundary line between the tribes of Judah . 2:8 for additional contextual support. This practice was carried out . From "The Fires of Gehenna: View of Scholars" by Todd Bolen, "The first is Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the Holy Land beginning in 1838. "Are you referring to Origen? And just like all garbage dumps, there were worms. ge) . Diana Group Profile and History . During the reign of King Josiah (640-609 B.C. The New Jerusalem will contain people body and soul living in space in time, with God in happiness for all eternity. 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